Men Going Their Own Way

Musings on Masculinity and Men's Issues in Modern Society.

Tuesday, September 30, 2014

Time to Move Beyond MGTOW

http://dapook.blogspot.com.au/2008/03/time-to-move-beyond-mgtow.html

There is something very wrong with MGTOW. Instead of talking about 'men going their own way', we see...

-Anti-Americanism (or other rants against one's mother country)
-Declarations of Chicken Little economic/social/cultural collapse.
-Religious screeds against a particular religion or against all religions.
-Conspiracy theories.
-Evangelizing the 'Deck-Stacked-Against-Us-Have-No-Hope' view of society (which is unproductive)
-Evangelizing that one ought to live like a Mexican...
-...or another country...
-Forums become a 'Yes!' echo chamber. There is no discussion, just rants filled with yes-men.

These 'elements' are well known but ignored because of the 'good things' that do come out. We should just shrug off these things and compromise with them. Well, there is one problem.

When food and poison compromise, which is the victor? It is the poison. Eating it may be sustaining... for the short term... but your body fills up with these poison toxins. You begin to lose your ambition, your passion, and generally become filled with bitterness.

I have wondered how this is occurring. It is not uncommon. Many 'movements' somehow get filled with negative filled people with anger issues and other wackos. But not all movements. So how did MGTOW become a container for this garbage?

The answer is that MGTOW is founded on a negative itself: avoidance of woman. This has caused blanket rants against women. "But many of these rants are accurate, Pook!" So what? A farmer can rant all day about the unfairness of frost, but that will not get him anywhere. There is no cosmic justice out there. The world is what it is and its better to live in it that in a hyper-reality.

Perhaps this will hit more to the point. How many years has MGTOW existed? And what has changed since then? Really, nothing has changed at all.

But I have to wonder why no one in MGTOW can keep to the subject. Pick any random thread and you will find someone start going off the reservation of a speech against a religion or another unasked for soapbox sermon on some oddball subject. Often, many will randomly insert his "brilliant" assertion that civilization will collapse in ten years.

MGTOW is based on the belief that men have made mistakes (which should be spared making mistakes). These mistakes can include marriage, being nice guy, being worshipful to women, and so on. All these mistakes have a common theme: egotism. When the man got married, he was so sure he was doing the right thing and the naysayers were all jealous villains.

Since so many join MGTOW based on being wrong in the past, why does everyone act like they are right all the time? It is amazing! The egotism never died. It just shifted into new forms. This would explain why someone can't keep to the subject of MGTOW and instead must start bashing a religion, bashing a country, or bashing something else. One can be right on something and be wrong on other things. But MGTOW do not see that. They act like they have suddenly become right on everything (so they become vocal on it).

If we were wrong in the past, and it damaged our lives (such as getting married to a fiend), why do we strut around as if we have such 'wisdom'? If we were so wrong once, we could be wrong again. Yet, this reservation is nowhere to be found in MGTOW. Every man has his own pet theories. The dogs slip their leash and begin to ravage the good content.

To be honest, I don't see many happy MGTOW. There are no celebrations about being 'free' but complaining about... something. Trust me; celebrations and good cheer are far more effective and contagious than "being right all the time".

In normal society, people do not like being around someone 'right all the time'. Even if they are right, they are downright annoying. People prefer light-hearted, good cheered fun. When I think of MGTOW, 'good cheer' is the last to come to mind. MGTOW isn't about being alive as it is about escaping pain.

For as much as we mock feminists for being negative, for getting with women to talk bad about men, it is becoming more and more clear that MGTOW is becoming more like the mirror image. Behavior by behavior, a MGTOW male acts very similar to a feminist in lifestyle and habit. You begin to live alone, have meetings with guys to 'talk bad about women' (to ease existential pains), and write bad essays.

I think it is becoming clear that marriage and children is a natural longing in not just women but men as well. Nature did not intend gender avoidance. I believe generally everyone is repelled by the negative pessimistic tone found on MGTOW. However, people return consistently for a dose of the poison to ease the existential pain (caused by the natural longing of wife and children which is found in every culture and time). Once convinced by the rantings that women are more painful than pleasurable, the male goes off semi-satisfied. But, alas, the natural longing creeps up again causing the male to return.


why, it must be requited. I hear how I am censured:
they say I will bear myself proudly, if I perceive
the love come from her; they say too that she will
rather die than give any sign of affection. I did
never think to marry: I must not seem proud: happy
are they that hear their detractions and can put
them to mending. They say the lady is fair; 'tis a
truth, I can bear them witness; and virtuous; 'tis
so, I cannot reprove it; and wise, but for loving
me; by my troth, it is no addition to her wit, nor
no great argument of her folly, for I will be
horribly in love with her. I may chance have some
odd quirks and remnants of wit broken on me,
because I have railed so long against marriage: but
doth not the appetite alter? a man loves the meat
in his youth that he cannot endure in his age.
Shall quips and sentences and these paper bullets of
the brain awe a man from the career of his humour?
No, the world must be peopled. When I said I would
die a bachelor, I did not think I should live till I
were married.
-"Much Ado About Nothing", Shakespeare

MGTOW is equally damned.

22 comments:

Canadian MGTOW said...

You're talking about egotism in MGTOW?? Have you check the amount that is out there with most women? Look at all the grotesquely fat women out there with their blue-pill skinny boyfriends.

From the "complaining" that I have seen, it is usually based on FACTS. You *might* have a case to say we complain too much when you find us grouping together and getting government funding like feminists who, in my opinion, are the biggest complainers in the world. But MGTOW will never group together because we are literally going our own way. Your article smells of feminism in that we are ONLY allowed to express our issues and complaints when it agrees with your ideology. I can only speak for myself, but as a MGTOW, I could really care less is women, or you, like me.

A Man's Side of the Story said...

Well, it seems you've decided to embrace a very distorted view of what it means to be a MGTOW. Generally speaking its not about a singular reaction against women or motivated exclusively by aggrieved men who have been hurt by women in the past. Its about rediscovering a sense of personal value that leads to a preference for self-determination. Of course this is a very strange concept for those existing outside of MGTOW to conceptualize. I suppose if one is born on a plantation, lives no other lace than the plantation and has only accepted as normal the unjust treatment of a disposable slave on a plantation, any idea of liberation from that plantation might seem alien.

Yes there are some MGTOWs that have harsh things to say about women to each other, but that's generally what it is, two or more guys articulating a shared experience with each other. Their communication with each other isn't meant to be a plea or cry or even an appeal for social change. That's not going to happen, but people from the outside reading or hearing MGTOWs quickly frame their discourse in terms of demanding something from women and sulking when its refused.

Its not about you or other women for a change. MGTOWs only don't seem happy, because like the plantation analogy some simply cannot conceptualize a different orientation of life liberated from it, and therefore they must be bitter, angry or sad. Consider the alternative offered to liberation, a return to slavery and casual disposability. Its easy from the metaphorically blue pill existence to omit comments frequently made by MGTOWs that their lives are better, freer and more meaningful without depending on women to validate their self worth. If a man doesn't deal with women insomuch as what is absolutely necessary and unavoidable, there's no rejection from which bitterness can emerge. If he doesn't date, he can divert his money to things that are more meaningful to his sensibilities and have something to show for it. If he doesn't marry, there is no divorce, no alimony no robbery of his assets and property, if he doesn't have children he won't have to be punished in family court. Truly what is there to be unhappy about? Have you seen the marrie guys raked over during divorce, have you seen the guys who have to navigate the zero sum game of modern relationships with women? Do you think they are more happy living like a slave?

MGTOWs aren't trying to fix society so why should one expect a social change? MGTOWS are individualistic and its not a political movement with aims of affecting ideological social change to conform to a set of specific ideological principles. MGTOW forums aren't here to convince you of anything and if you're not a MGTOW any opinion you have about how you think other men should go there own way is meaningless. MGTOW is a basic solution that works under the present social paradigm, Whether you think so or not, isn't the concern of MGTOWS

Brendon Bookman said...

Nobody is hoping society or women will change as a result of a small (but growing) number of men dropping out and doing our own thing. It would be pretty arrogant for us to think we mattered that much on a macro scale. But, that isn't what MGTOW is about. It is about us going our own way, and not being quantified by how women rate/categorize us, how other men judge us with regard to our ability to attract women, etc. They don't matter. Their opinions don't matter to us. So if it is time to move beyond MGTOW, go right ahead. Three more will take your place.

Anonymous said...

not agreeing, or disagreeing. Just stating that I am very happy I got divorced 2 years ago have no interest in even having a girlfriend I'm busy working on my home and I have a dog who loves me a hundred percent. That's all

Jules said...

Mgtow is a strategic retreat from a society where the inmates are running the asylum. Wether it be instutionalized slavery in the family courts, marxists activists n the msm, or

The rat race to accumulate more stuff. Family and kids are a natural longing, but in the present climate, men need to presss the reset button so as to rediscover freedom and male independence .

John Shadows said...

Who said MGTOW was beholden to those who disagree? It's not something men are waiting for approval from women to do. Ditto for the men who weakly label MGTOW as egotistical because they cite the heaping evidence of women clearly doing things no real sentient man would want any part of.

" MGTOW isn't about being alive as it is about escaping pain."

Wild animals are smart enough to avoid that which is painful. Why would man, the highest species on the planet, do any different?


"convinced by the rantings that women are more painful than pleasurable"
The rantings don't convince us. The FACTS do. Dirty little secret: Some women ARE more painful the pleasurable! The women themselves know this and readily tell others like it's some symbol of their value and desirability. I've seen this firsthand multiple times and it's become culture agnostic.

Your weak attempt at defending women exposed you as pandering to women and not offering an honest critique.

Irony is, we have an entire movie and television genre dedicated to the myriad of ways women get hurt yet when men speak of THEIR pain you minimize it and treat them as infantile for speaking on it. Why the double standard sir?

Joshua Sinistar said...

Look you tool. You're the fool not us. Society said they don't want us or need us. They discriminate against us and force us out and then complain we're not supporting them. They kicked us out and they want us back on their terms? Fuck you, asshole. Let it burn. They need us. You need us. We made that shit you need to live fucker, and we're the only ones that keep it running. Without us, its gonna break and your fags and niggers aren't going to be able to fix it. So fuck you and your high horse dummy. Fuck off and die. When its all gone and your bones are bleaching in the sun, we'll be back to take what's ours, and you'll just be a bad fucking joke LOSER!

Monad said...

Joshua Sinistar,

You need society, just as society needs you, we are all dependent upon each other, it's fucking simple symbiosis. Play the hand you are dealt with and make the most of it, that is all any-one can do in this blink of an eye, finite time we have on this planet.

No-one gives a fuck about you, me or the most supposedly precious as-all-fuck entitled woman in the universe.

I'm not against you, but if the world burns, we all burn, you are not going to get away unscathed either.

I am not them, but I'm going to have my view, I've been in MGTOW since it's early days and if you don't like what I have to say, I don't give a fuck mate, no matter how many epithets you throw at me.


The more things change, the more they remain the same or there is nothing new under the sun...

http://cydoniansignal.com/2014/11/12/hate-in-the-era-of-social-justice/

Warbird Phoenix said...

This article is only focuses on a very small part of the explosion that is the gender war.
A more accurate view of MGTOW is a secondary explosion caused by the main one and its shrapnel as "men".
There is no "beyond" MGTOW.
MGTOW is an explosive reaction to an event and its pieces of shrapnel have no say to the other pieces of shrapnels flight paths.
There is one thing that is clear about the whole thing.
The explosions happened and there is no undoing them.The consequences will be felt whether everyone likes it or not and has no choice but to live with it until one dies.
So... there is no "beyond" anything even MGTOW.
It all just ends.

Joshua Sinistar said...

Only a fool fights in a burning house. I didn't leave America it left me. They didn't even deal me a hand to play. They say men like me are their enemy and there are new Americans to take my place. Fuck them. If that's their attitude, then let them burn. I'm not supporting people who kicked me out. Fuck them and fuck you. I'm not stupid you are. If they won't let me play, I'll survive and strip their bones when they bleach in the sun. I don't need anyone who considers me to be their enemy.

Rich said...

This article is approaching a year old, and has been around MGTOW longer than I have, and MGTOW appears to even done more crazy things than the article spoke off, with a number of burnouts and it is still standing. I say make MGTOW what it will be for yourself, and ignore the noise.

Anonymous said...

The most massive mistake men make in their lives is giving women the power to destroy them! Do not listen to anyone that tells you otherwise! Why? Because they want power over your life or support others having that power! For whatever reason - they see your balls in a woman's hands a good thing for society. Untold millions of men, in the US alone, over the past 50 years alone, have had their lives destroyed by one or more women! You gain zero-zip-zilch by giving a woman any level of legal, emotional, psychological, physical or financial power over your life - and you have everything to lose by doing so!

Take the debate on The Safe Campus Act, that's raging right now, for instance. Most people want law enforcement to handle rape cases. Why? Because under the "Yes Means Yes" law, men have no right to know their accuser, no right to an attorney and no right to present evidence on their behalf in college kangaroo courts. As a man, you will be expelled from college if a woman regrets having sex with you or if you break up with her and she gets angry. Feminists want to defeat the Safe Campus Act because it forced colleges to use law enforcement before taking any action against students accused of rape or sexual assault. Remember the Rolling Stone/UVA made up rape story? The Duke Lacrosse made up rape story? Some police estimate that 40% of rape/sexual assault accusations are false - and they're assaulted by feminists for doing so! The truth that a huge portion of rape/sexual assault accusations are made up is something feminists desperately hope to hide!

The Violence Against Women Act (VAWA) works the same way. No-fault divorce was written by the National Association of Women Lawyers for the express purpose of making it easier for women to divorce their husbands while allowing women to keep their husbands assets and current/future income. Every major "law", like Title IX, affirmative action, SNAP, WIC, quotas for women, etc, was created to give women an upper hand over men, to redistribute wealth from men to women and to destroy the patriarchy (DESTROY MALE POWER). "DESTROY THE PATRIARCHY" MEANS TO DESTROY MEN'S POWER AND WEALTH AND TO REDISTRIBUTE THAT POWER AND WEALTH TO WOMEN!

Women are not your "help meets". They are your competitors and adversaries and will do what's best for the own self-interests - EVEN IF THAT MEANS DESTROYING YOUR LIFE! DO NOT LISTEN TO THOSE THAT TELL YOU OTHERWISE! Anyone that tells you otherwise has a vested interested in you becoming the next destroyed fool!

After breaking up with one of my girlfriends, she falsely accused me of assault with a deadly weapon! I know firsthand the lengths women will go to destroy a man that displeases her!

Any "MGHOW" that tries to convince you that any of the above is false or overblown is an NAIVE FOOL, HAS A GYNOCENTRIC AGENDA, IS A WHITE KNIGHT, IS A WOMAN PRETENDING TO BE A MAN AND/OR HAS NO CLUE WHAT MGTOW MEANS! People like this invade mgtow spaces in the hopes of returning men to living life on bended knee as financial slaves to women! Don't listen to them!

John Shadows said...

Amen.

Read your post and all my memories and realizations of my experiences came flooding back.

Even in the law enforcement venue, most domestic violence cases START with the assumption that the woman is the victim not the assailant which why when the cops show up, the guy gets kicked out.

Exponentially worse if there are kids involved who have no problem lobbing false charges at a dad with moms coaching. The new boyfriend is by default expendable so don't envy him. He'll be dispatched in the same manner.

Fair trial in the court you say? I was in court with a judge who is a convicted WIFE BEATER yet he tried to throw me in jail over something he never ordered me to do. It was as if he such a pussy that the sight of my ex with her useless pump my daughter parents in the courtroom put him in white knight mode and he ignored 5 proven examples of her perjury while trying every way possible to jail me. If you do go to court, ALWAYS GET THE VIDEO OF THE COURT PROCEEDINGS. Painful as it may be to watch, it can and will save you later.

Anonymous said...

Women have no business in the MGTOW space. There are now hundreds of MGTOW hits on the internet, this movement has grown enough to even have spots on traditional news outlets (much to the chagrin of the (male and female)feminazies that control the media..lol).

All attempts by feminists, manginas and SJWs to insult belittle and humiliate the MGTOW movement and members is gratifying. Thanks, please keep it up since it acts like free advertising and also shows that you are losing your audience. The fact that feminazis and public manginas are bashing MGTOW adds loads of legimacy to MGTOW. It shows we are on the right path, I know it is the right path for men.

Frankley we do not care about your blabbering whining complaints, any more than we care about wymons bemoaning the lack of "marriageable" men. Following your lesbian feminist leaders has earned you exactly what you deserve.

NO man needs a woman but ALL women need a man.

Goodby

Anonymous said...

I'm a married woman, but in contact with mgtow guys online, they have always been reasonable and kind. The ones that don't want any contact with women - dunno about them, because they don't talk to women right? My personal experience is that these guys are more bark than bite. Lots of hyperbole, but their basic message boils down to: we don't owe anyone anything. And they really don't, they're completely within their rights. Those men that DO still want to take care of their families aren't to be taken for granted. And just because I WANT the nuclear family and managed to get it, doesn't mean I'm entitled to it. And apart from some tax benefits depending on your country and parenting laws, there is no reason to involve government in your relationship (ie marry officially). It's up to each couple to see how far they trust their own judgment in making that commitment and to weigh the risks for themselves.

John Shadows said...

The problem with nuclear families for men these days is that it blows up in a mushroom cloud destroying the man and all he holds dear right before his eyes.

Many times a man has to defend not just against the woman he's with. He gotta defend against the woman she COULD become.

Even with a prenup in place, domestic violence scenarios play out against the man in many cases. Mgtow is a coalescing of all the facts, anectodes and bereavements in one place.

I'm actually not surprised to see racist comments either as often times our vision narrows in the tunnel of pain.

Monad said...

John Shadows, agreed.

Unknown said...

Sing it

Dream Tunnel said...

MGTOW was never supposed to be about the things talked about in this article, the people defending MGTOW are defending its principles which are basically living your own life, understanding laws that can work against you, putting career and hobbies before love.

If guys were to actually follow this they would do very well in life, unfortunately....as the article states....very few MGTOW are in the groups to discuss these principles, it HAS been taken over by the disenfranchised, learned helplessness brigade, this is what the defenders of MGTOW always seem to ignore.....it only takes you to read the first few articles in any group to see this is a reality.

No one is trying to clean up the scene and push guys to focus on the principles, they are allowed to moan and fester. And as stated in the article, it doesnt help anyone, I joined the MGTOW scene 4 years ago, I go back to groups now, I see the same people ranting about the same shit, their lives have not moved forward.....how can it when they are stuck in this obsessive compulsive mind rut? Tell them they need to change and the whole group will devour you like rabit dogs, throwing their buzz words at you! Just like they do with any one who dares to think out side of the tiny MGTOW box......FEMINIST! MANGINA! FAGGOT! WOMAN!.....these are the only arguments they ever have.

Even in the comments on this article....some one called the author a feminist.....surprise surprise.....coz every one who disagree's is part of the conspiracy right?.

The true MGTOWs are too busy riding motor bikes across deserts, banging young sluts or jumping on flights to have time to sit on their computers generating cry sessions every day.

If the apocalypse really is coming, or if society really is going to collapse....would you rather look back and say.....MGTOW helped me lve my life ot the fullest....or are you goint to look back and say....well at least i found a bunch of mates to fight feminism on the internet with......

duh! come one boys! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEEEEEASSSSSEEEEEE wake up from the hypnosis

Canadiandude said...

I agree with everything sald. I got so pissed off yesterday in the mgtow forums. I got tired of being attacked by fellow mgtow who doesn't do shit. Tired of not taking responsibility for their own way. Keymaster at mgtow.com resorted to name calling like LazyCanuck and crap. He refused to read what I read have posted.
It's all dumb down. MGTOW are so angry when want to hurt women by having causal sex. The PUMP and DUMP bullshit hurts women and makes these women hate men. MGTOW cried how women hurt them but when it's the other way around it is ok to do. This is the dumbest I ever seen in a group.

the grass eater of Japan are far better. They don't use use women for sex and make women ending up hating them. Many of the grass eaters actually have female friends. This isn't case with MGTOW.

MGTOW needs to look in the mirror and stop being whining little bitches and say it's all her fault. If a man can't take responsibilities for his own choices and actions why the hell should any good woman be with him?

Canadiandude said...

"There is no "beyond" MGTOW."
Of course there is I am going beyond MGTOW. Been in the community about 2 years. I'm fed up with it. Tired of the attacks from fellow mgtow. Tired of bitching about women but not looking inwards. Tired mgtow think it's ok to pump and dump women when they cried how women hurt them. How is it hurting women is ok? Sure it maybe not be phyically but it is still hurting women.
MGTOW will just feed fuel to the fire like feminism does and MGTOW will get women to hate men.
I guess that's what the MGTOW men want. How is it making matters worse a good thing?

Anonymous said...

Until the property laws are drastically changed marriage remains a sucker's bet in the USA. Is your blowtoad worth you pulling an additional 18 years at a job you probably hate?

The real answer is to legalize prostitution AND perfect the male birth control pill. After that our pseudo fems will have to graze in solitude without us dutifully shoveling sweet feed in front of them.

Manginas are the ultimate traitors---they prove that misery loves company.